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Good evening. The question of flying saucers or no flying saucers has been with us since

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a man named Dahl claimed on June 21, 1947 to have seen six large airborne discs. Sometime

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after that experienced airmen reported unidentified flying objects. From 1947 to 1962, 3,369 UFOs,

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unidentified flying objects have been reported to the United States Air Force. Controversy

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surrounds this subject. Many supersonic jets as well as balloons are reported as UFOs under

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adverse weather and sighting conditions. Man-made satellites in orbit have confused many sky

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watchers. Highly technical electronic systems track everything that moves across our skies

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without positive identification yet as a flying saucer as such. Yet reports of flying saucers

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persist. We will try to resolve this question of flying saucers with the evidence at hand.

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Our distinguished panel is made up of George Adamski, an expert on flying saucers from

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VISTA California. Dr. Norman L. Trott, president at Leslie Theological Seminary. Dr. Mark

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Harrison, chairman of the physics department at American University. Dr. B. L. Clark, astronomer

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at the U.S. Naval Observatory. We will begin our discussion in just a moment.

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This is Raymond Burr speaking for the 1964 Freedom's Roll Call. Now there's a word for

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you, freedom. What does it conjure up in your mind? The revolution, the constitution, the

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Fourth of July, two world wars? Perhaps when you think of freedom you think of working where

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you please, traveling where you want, worshipping as you like, the American way. Or maybe your

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mind leaps to the hundreds of millions living under the chains of communism, people who

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have lost their freedom. Or maybe you just never think of freedom at all. May I remind

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you that freedom is a precious thing, but it must be protected and cherished, lest it

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be lost or destroyed. I invite you to join with me in learning what we can do for freedom.

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We're asked today for a copy of Freedom's Handbook, right to Freedom's Foundation, Valley

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Forge, Pennsylvania.

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Well gentlemen, in our opening film sequence we have seen what's supposed to be a flying

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saucer. The film was taken by Mr. Adamski who makes claims of seeing flying saucers on

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a number of occasions. I think it would be best to start off with him and ask him how

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in the face of overwhelming evidence against flying saucers do you still claim, sir, that

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there is such a thing as flying saucers, the film notwithstanding?

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Well, having a personal experience at one time, I didn't believe me there because I

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brought up as amateur astronomer and what we've been taught and so forth seemed to be

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impossible, but after years of experience and so forth and coming close contact with

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them, I can't help but believe just like in the early days after all there were seven

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planets known and when the eighth one was coming in at fourth finally in the ninth one

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there was a lot of discretion due on that, that they didn't exist.

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Well, Dr. Clark, there's a mistrater working you by this line of ideas.

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Well, first of all I'd like to ask Mr. Adamski if he's familiar with Edward Rupel's views

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on this subject he was made right here.

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Rupel? Yes, I have. I got a tape recording. He came up to see me and I got a tape recording

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home of his own statements there.

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Right. Well, in his recent book on unidentified flying saucers he states that he does not

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believe in flying saucers.

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Well, naturally in the position he has placed he has to state that way but personally talking

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to him very finally, you know, he passed away in that long ago and personally they all admit

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more or less. I know a lot of them that have come to me and told me and supported me yet

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I did not use their name in my defense because well, they would just get in trouble.

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Well, many of the photographs that have been published and shown in the newspapers and

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so on could very well have been pictures of astronomical phenomena which I'm sure you're

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familiar with.

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I agree.

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One is the super meteor or bulloid.

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Oh yeah.

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I agree with you. When there is something genuine happens and it's been that way for centuries,

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there's a bunch of opportunities to bring up and bring up a lot of things that confuse

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the issue and causes the knowledge to be thrown back, drotted, then coming forward.

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I realize that and I'm aware of it.

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Mr. Adams, you claim to have seen flying saucers on a number of occasions. Why do you think

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you have seen flying saucers so frequently and the rest of us have never seen a flying

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saucer?

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Well, you can't stay in the building and see them. You've got to watch them. When you

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watch the sky like we have watched at the beginning every night and every night, you

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bound to be seeing some of the words, the average person, most of the cases doesn't

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do that.

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Were you inspired for us to know what these look like?

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Well, the scouts, what they call scouts, were carried by the mothership, the long one that

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you just saw there on the screen. Well, they're round one and they only travel from the mothership

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to earth and go back into it. And the motherships like our airplane carriers are the ones that

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carry them between the planets. Well, these here, small ones like the Carl Planck saucer

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are, you may say, will accommodate about six people the most. Some of them don't accommodate

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that much.

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Well, the motherships, the sky-shaped type, they carry these and accommodate a crew of

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at least 50 to a couple of hundred. Where would they come from? Well, they come from

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Mars, Venus, and one other planet known now, and that we said, although there were some

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reporters that were coming from Jupiter as well.

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You say known.

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Yeah.

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Because when I made a trip around the world in 59, I've got a million reports from different

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ones, very reliable sources, even in England from the Defense Department, when I had lunch

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in with them.

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Dr. Prott, how about this?

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I was wondering what this position was on the habitability of these planets and conceivable

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that they could sustain life. There have been many ways to interpret the data which we have

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from Mars and Venus regarding the atmospheric composition of these planets, and many astronomers

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argue that there can be life and many argue that there can't be life on Mars and Venus.

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However, on most of the other planets in our solar system, I would say 99.99% of astronomers

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are definite in their views that life could not possibly exist on these planets as we

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know it here on Earth today. For example, on Jupiter and Saturn, which you just mentioned,

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the atmospheric composition of these planets is primarily composed of nothing and ammonia.

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Oxygen ammonia is not too good to breathe.

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Yeah.

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And I'd like to get back to one point which you made earlier though, in which you mentioned

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that you observed these objects because you watch for them quite frequently. We have a

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professional program you might say called Project Moonwatch, which Dr. Allen Heineck

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had it. And according to Dr. Heineck, all of the objects which his people looked for,

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all the hours that were spent making the observations, no one ever reported an unidentified planet.

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Well, I again have information on that also from the Moonwatch where they reported it,

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but it never reported to the public this thing. It's quite bleak when you get a book that

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instructs you how to do it if you're a Moonwatcher or a watcher of any kind. They tell you definitely

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to be careful and observe that and report it as best you can to try to get the size, speed

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and all of that.

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All right.

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Dr. Trott, as a theologian, what is your view of the possibility of a being coming from

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outer space to this Earth on a flying saucer type object?

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Well, I don't think there'd be any problem at this point. I don't believe that from a theological

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point of view, even from the scriptural point of view, that you can rule out the possibility

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of human beings. Somewhere else in the universe, indeed, I think it's quite probable. So that

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this doesn't give me any difficulty. And there are cues and scriptures that might shore up

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your point of view. And Ezekiel, for example, if you can pick up the spiritual which picks

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up the idea, Ezekiel saw a wheel way up in the middle of the sky. Whether this was a

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dream or whether it was a reality is something we really don't know. There isn't any problem

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at this point of view. I think our problem is, well, the problem of evidence, really,

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can you pinpoint this? And can we conceive of beings on other planets more advanced than

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the beings on our own making this kind of flight this time? And I have just to hear what the

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historian says and the physicist says. We have an interesting subject to follow you up on.

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We have an interesting subject that just came to me before I went on the strip. This is the

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article here in German and it was copied from an Italian and it is the Vatican official paper,

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the observatory of Mano published this and it says in there, the Vatican is already training

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space missionaries. And they're quite an interesting article, what they do, what they suspect

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they, so they already informed or know more about it that the preparing for the youngsters already

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that be missionaries to go on other planets in order to transmit their type of bleed to

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the people on other worlds. Mr. Adam, in your opening statement did I understand you to say

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that something about six passengers are provisioned for six passengers on the scout ship?

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On the scout ship, yeah, from two to six. How did you get the information?

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Well, the one I made a contact with the first time out in the desert and decided that light,

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which is in California yet, they were two men and I didn't get to see the other one, but the one that I

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talked to at that time on the ground, well, I've seen the other one only through reflection

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there in the ship, but there were two in that one. How did you talk to one?

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Well, I didn't talk to him like we talk here because it's pretty odd. I did talk to Ethway

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and he didn't answer me, although he seemed to understand me. So I started gestures and so forth

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and of course we all know that the thought that precious can be a post upon another person

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and so forth that they're alerted and I tried to do that because I studied that angle too

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and seemed like he understood that I anyhow got him to understand that I want to know where he was from.

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And so by gestures I pointed through the sun and then I made my first orbit and I said,

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Mercury in the second orbit, Venus in third orbit, third. I pointed to that. I did that twice.

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He finally did the same thing and stopped at the second orbit, so he gave me the answer, Venus.

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And I said Venus and he nodded his head.

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Dr. Erfman?

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Well, I remember Mr. Adamski telling about this in his book, which he wrote with Desmond Leslie.

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There were several things that surprised me there. You indicated that these people look very much like people who live on the Earth.

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That's right. They do look like it. Any one of us could be one of them. On the other hand, I don't see why a creator

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would have another geometrical pattern for human beings instead of following the normal pattern as we know ourselves.

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They may be different minds and different sizes and all of that, but I think that a creator would follow the pattern straight through.

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Well, now this surprises me a great deal. I remember reading Dick Tracy and Diet Smith, who played a visit to the moon.

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The thing that rather intrigued me was the idea that the creator of the Dick Tracy comic strip chose to draw these people very much like people on Earth.

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What is this picture? This is a picture from Mr. Adamski's book showing the face man that Mr. Adamski says he saw.

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There's an artist with you at the time.

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Yes, and I'd sketch that picture.

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Well, now let me tell you what I feel is surprising about the fact that they would be similar in shape and size to human beings as we know them.

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I'll tell you my thoughts about Dick Tracy first if that's relevant. The moon has a very low gravitational field.

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When you examine the sort of features and why and wherefore, the people are the size they are.

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It turns out there are very good reasons why they are the size that they are.

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That they function well at this particular size and not some other size.

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For example, if we were ten times the size that we are, it would be rather difficult to get a bone structure that would support us.

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Just the sheer weight of the thing. We have to have a different way of forming bone structure out of the mineral we eat and so forth because it wouldn't have the strength to support us.

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So that the size that we are is well suited to our particular size of the Earth and the associated gravitational pull.

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Now these planets differ widely in size and gravity.

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Perhaps Dr. Clark could...

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Well, I would like to comment something on that too. Let's go back to our structure of the present day.

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I'm 73 years old. I've gone through 73 years of life here.

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And I have seen in my time when I was a kid starting out in labor, I've seen in my time men here on Earth, very heavy structure because they had to do everything by hand,

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digging ditches, plensoons and all of that.

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And since we have machines, notice our present generation is still the same design, same structure, but they're much lighter in structure and bone and everything else in nature seems to take care of that.

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I watched the Olympic trials last week and saw some very big fellows going there.

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Dr. Clark, could I address a question to you? Could you quote some figures on the relative gravitational forces on other planets?

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Well, for example, the moon, that's about 1.6 out of the Earth as far as the gravitational...

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It'd be a wonderful place to play a baseball game, wouldn't it?

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I don't have the exact figures, but I think Jupiter is about 30 times the gravitational attraction of the Earth.

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And that would seem to call for smaller people, wouldn't it?

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Well, it depends. I don't know if you need someone smaller or larger to support this heavy force which would be pulling you down towards the center of gravity on the planet.

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You may need someone with something that was larger.

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I would think smaller because, consider the amp, he can fall off the table when I hurt himself.

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In other words, you might think that the person would be spread out in this coordinate more than that coordinate.

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If he falls, I think what a boom-crushing experience that would be with 30 times the gravitational force.

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Well, certainly not flying in that area.

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Flying in saucers instead of flying in cups.

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And where do we get the answer on the gravity as being exact to begin with?

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From our instruments.

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And our instruments still need improvement.

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Let me remind you of something here just a little while back, which we sent up the second satellite up there,

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and supposed to register and bring that message back about a space and also register what's on Earth.

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Combination in order to get some kind of a measuring stick there by which we could go.

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And mind God, they registered no oxygen on Earth.

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Dr. Harrison, let's talk about the spacecraft that we have seen on this film.

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We have heard of saucers and the cigar-type objects that we saw at the beginning of the program.

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What appeared to be the movements of a fly in a rush in all directions at once.

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Is it physicist?

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What do you think it is?

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I would like to tell you the following story.

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On Labor Day weekend, I had my boat down to Smith Island, which as you know is in the lower part of Chesapeake Bay.

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And I was running across to Solomon's Island on a Sunday morning.

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And I saw an unidentified object in the sky and started to call it to a friend of mine who was sailing with me.

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And I looked a few minutes later and it was gone before I had a chance to call it to his attention.

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About an hour went by and I saw it again.

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And once again, I tried to call it to his attention but he was busy doing other things.

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The third time I succeeded in calling it to his attention so he saw it also.

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Now, at the time I didn't give a great deal of thought to it.

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I thought, well, it's something and that's the end of it.

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Something I don't know what it is but I didn't jump any hasty conclusion.

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It was just something that I didn't know what it was.

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Later on, we got over to Solomon's Island and then I had some second thoughts about it.

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The first thought was that I noticed a balloon salesman and one of them was already some kid had turned root thousand and it took off.

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So I said, well, there's a possibility.

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The other possibility, I suddenly realized that the trucks at Naval Air Base was very nearby.

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And I don't know what they were with but certainly they must use some targets of some kind.

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How is my observations different in kind than yours?

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My being sort of a natural skeptic, I started looking around for plausible reasons.

206
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The notion of flying saucers never occurred to me until I saw this book of yours.

207
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You are right.

208
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Prior to our big radar system that we have today, at the beginning from 46 on, you noticed they didn't have any of me and there were more sightings also seen.

209
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But today we have a lot of things to observe them and plus then we've got 500 pieces or more debris flying around in space that we have put up there since we started dealing with space.

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And any one of those could be reported as a flying saucer but this also could be confirmed because the Air Force follows these objects right along in order to know where they are at given time and report it, they check on it and know whether it's flying saucer or is a debris.

211
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Mr. Adamski, the Air Force has this.

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In fact, no unidentified flying object has given any indication of threat to the national security.

213
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There has been no evidence submitted or to or discovered by the Air Force that unidentified sightings represented technological developments or principles beyond the range of our present-day scientific knowledge.

214
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And finally, there has been nothing in the way of evidence or other data to indicate that these unidentified sightings were extraterrestrial vehicles under intelligent control.

215
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Well, here's the statement, the Dishya statement in January of the 9-1964 given at Winston-Salem and at the touchclips.

216
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So far as the Air Force, I have Mr. Benson, who is very, he was very closely connected with the branches of the government.

217
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He's better than he cracked the plane.

218
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And this, did you say what branch?

219
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Huh?

220
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Did you tell the footwork?

221
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Well, he's the one that also established this institution down in Winston-Salem, what they call, can't think of it, a little educational institution.

222
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I know it very well.

223
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And I just right now can't think of it.

224
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He is founder of that.

225
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But he was closely connected.

226
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He was in Washington most of the time.

227
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And it says the Air Force, I'm sorry, are concerned.

228
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They are not always.

229
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They are not foreign nation or extraterrestrial or ministered the United States.

230
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And down here, they go on the state here.

231
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It is reasonable that the USA Air Force and the US government will not go on an official record of non-identifying the conflict.

232
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Definitely, it could be extraterrestrial or controlled by intelligent beings or in a hostile.

233
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But it, against whom we have no defense, if they should choose hostility, an announcement of this would create a message here perhaps far greater than the single radio broadcast source that was 25 years ago.

234
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And then they go on a 25% of the Air Force and 1,000, 2,000 sources reports from a military pilot and airline pilots, general staff were said, but not even these continue correct.

235
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I interrupt you for a minute here.

236
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You mentioned just about two or three minutes ago that there were many more radar and names by which we can examine or search for these UFOs today.

237
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You agree to that.

238
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Yeah.

239
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And how do you count since there are more receptors or objects to receive the information for the fact that there have been fewer and fewer sightings reported since 1950s?

240
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I agree to that because they stay on beyond the radar screen and are commander.

241
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I mean, you know, and then they don't come and just fly like they did before.

242
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We're 500 students over at Farmington in 1952.

243
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They stay all day long.

244
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But I think our surveillance systems are probably much superior to what they were in 1953.

245
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And it is as far as our military is concerned.

246
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If there was a release what they catch today, which they could and someday they will, I think we'd all be pretty much surprised.

247
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And but this is the point that they want to bring here.

248
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Here, accurate information in size, speed, altitude, directions have not been even condemned by this.

249
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So now the Air Force is switching from a shotgun approach.

250
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See up to this time shotgun approach.

251
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Collecting mass of reports to attempt to get the correct measurements so scientists will have something to work with the General Sampson.

252
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Do you think the Air Force is taking a position in if there are flying saucers?

253
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Definitely.

254
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Dr. Clark, what do you think of this?

255
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Well, I don't know about this is not my thing.

256
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I wanted to ask a question that takes off in another tack.

257
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Here, the astonishing thing to me above everything else is the fact that you have seen flying saucers at hand and have talked to the inhabitants of them.

258
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Has this occurred with any frequency in recent years that you know of other scene experience contact?

259
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Yes, others have seen it in this country about four or five other people.

260
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There's many claims that they're not all of the parts.

261
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And then throughout the world is about that many too.

262
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In fact, the last time I was in Europe, which was a little over a year ago, I talked to John Cook too.

263
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And I've learned quite a bit what the Vatican knew because he even gave me a little medal.

264
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And I'm glad to have it now because he passed away since then.

265
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Dr. Clark, I meant to come to you for this question about the Air Force and apparently their revised position on flying saucers.

266
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What were your reactions to this?

267
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Well, I don't know what the latest information was.

268
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All I have available is what Mr. Ruppelt had in his book.

269
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But notice that Captain Ruppelt is concerned.

270
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He's concerned, you know, with the scout master, he questions there.

271
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What burned that grass underneath there?

272
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The grass all right and the roots are all burned down.

273
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And there are electrical chips.

274
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He questioned that right the last time from the scout master.

275
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Mr. Clarkson, I didn't do justice to your earlier question regarding the film.

276
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I did have some questions I was trying to work my way around.

277
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Please do now, sir.

278
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I'll have a couple of moments.

279
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Mr. Ransky, could you estimate how fast you think this object was traveling that way?

280
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This object that we saw?

281
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I would say at least 15,000 miles per hour, I would say, according to the way it's moving, although it made me much faster.

282
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Well, within our Earth's atmosphere, you think that's right?

283
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:22,840
That's right.

284
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,840
And at Earth's atmosphere, I would say, is the height and the distance basis is to be judged.

285
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Not correct because you wouldn't dare to measure it exactly.

286
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,840
But I would say that it probably was at 5,000 to 10,000 feet.

287
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,840
Well, here's something that bothers me.

288
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To the best of our knowledge today, you can't move an object at supersonic speed.

289
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This is supersonic speed we're talking about through the atmosphere without getting a sonic boom.

290
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Now, how do you calculate that?

291
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It's hard to tell whether this object produced a sonic boom or it didn't because when I saw it, it was already moving and entered our atmosphere.

292
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The sonic boom would have been gone and then that territory, there's got...

293
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,840
No, the sonic boom stays with an object as it moves.

294
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:10,840
No, no, no, no. It doesn't stay because I've seen it on myself, our own jets break my sonic...

295
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,840
In that territory, this can't handle them.

296
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,840
Almost every day you've got it.

297
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They break the sonic boom and then they go on and you watch them and it would disappear, no more sound.

298
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Now, the sonic boom is when the particular shock wave traveling out from the outside, I know, has to be by where you happen to be standing.

299
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Well, gentlemen, I'm sorry, I must interrupt. Time has run out.

300
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I don't think we'll resolve the question of whether there's such a thing as flying saucers or not.

301
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We'll have to leave that up to the audience. We'll be back in just a moment.

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We would like to thank our guests for being with us tonight for this most interesting discussion.

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Our thanks to George Adamski, expert on flying saucers from Vista, California.

304
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Dr. Norman L. Trott, president of Wesley Theological Seminary.

305
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Dr. Mark Harrison, chairman of the physics department at American University.

306
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Dr. B. L. Clark, astronomer at the U.S. Naval Observatory.

307
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We hope you will be with us again when Community Dialogue discusses another topic of interest to Washington area.

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This is Harry Clarkson. Good night.

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Thank you.